What if: What if a Joint Parish was Created?

Here is an interesting link to a church I came across during my years in Virginia Beach, VA:

Church of the Holy Apostles

This church is a parish with an Anglican congregation and a Roman Catholic congregation in the same building, but with separate altars.

All of this talk about new structures for Anglican converts got me daydreaming of an imaginary future parish somewhere composed of a Roman Catholic congregation in the new Anglican Apostolate and an Eastern Orthodox congregation in a potential OCA Anglican Diocese.

Such an arrangement would have the advantage of pooling scarce resources during times of economic trouble such as ours.

Such a parish would also have twice the appeal to potential converts to both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't know if Eastern Orthodox canons would allow for such an arrangement, but it made for an interesting daydream, to be sure.

Blessings in the Holy Trinity.

Columba

Further Discussion about "Semi Conversion"

Good evening, dear readers.

My Orthodox brother in the Lord Subdeacon Joseph had some further comments about this subject, so I've decided to address these further.  He wrote the following in a comment:

One who wholeheartedly believes in all Orthodox theology and doctrine".... there is the crux of the problem. "Semi-converts" accept SOME of the Orthodox doctrine, along with SOME of their former doctrine, as the Orthodox doctrine. (I am specifically referring to things at variance with Orthodoxy).

I am also confused as to how you could make the SJC liturgy the core of a Western rite service.

Well, let's start with the second question first.

I'll admit that when I first decided to make the Western Rite my home in Holy Orthodoxy, I thought of an obvious question:  If Byzantine Rite Orthodox object to The Liturgy of Saint Tikhon because of it's rootedness in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, why didn't someone come up with an approach that placed the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom at the center of things and then build around it with the western forms and customs the Western Rite has that stand apart from the Saint Tikhon Liturgy?

If this approach had been looked at first, the worship of Western Rite Orthodox Christians and Eastern Rite Christians would at least share the same words of the core liturgy used.

So I've pictured how this might work as follows:

You replace the Mass or Divine Liturgy in a current Western Rite service with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

You leave the rest of the services intact, including the collects of the day, which are treasured by those coming from the Anglican and Lutheran traditions.  You examine these collects closely to make sure they conform to Holy Orthodoxy.

You leave the use of Anglican Plainchant and Gregorian Chant intact in Western Rite Services.

You leave the Hymnody intact, including the use of the Saint Ambrose Hymnal and the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal that those parishes that came into Orthodoxy from the Anglican tradition brought with them.

You leave the customs intact, including the blessing of birthdays and anniversaries and the prayers of the people. You leave the use of western style vestments intact. You allow praying of the Rosary as well as use of The Jesus Prayer.  You allow the use of The Stations of the Cross.

And finally, you allow the music programs of these parishes to continue with full choirs, pipe organs, pianos and the like.

This approach could have been taken, however when the disaffected Anglicans of the 1970's entered Holy Orthodoxy, they wanted to bring a cleaned up version of the 1928 BCP with them. Bishop Bellavin who later became Saint Tikhon had already gone over the Anglican Book of Common Prayer many years before, along with some other Orthodox assistants and had produced a version compatible with Eastern Orthodox theology.

The Anglicans had fought a major battle over the 1928 Prayerbook in the Episcopal Church and had also battled against Women's Ordination to the Diaconate and Priesthood.  They lost these battles and the so-called 1979 "Book of Common Prayer" was adopted in the Episcopal Church. As a result, many of these traditionally minded Anglicans were forced all the way out of their former church homes.    

My theory is that Metropolitan Phillip and other Antiochian Leaders in an attempt to be gracious to these battle weary Anglicans who desired to enter the Orthodox Church allowed the Liturgies of Saint Tikhon and the Liturgies of Saint Gregory to stand in the Antiochian jurisdiction.

One of the attachments to the 1928 Book of Common prayer re-worked into the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon was the use of the "Old English" or "King James English" in its pages.

The Anglicans of the 1970's distrusted all "Novus Ordo" type liturgical innovations, having been burned by the 1979 BCP controversy.  This distrust of modern English usage included Orthodox translations of The Divine Liturgy into modern English.

My journey into Eastern Orthodoxy came at a later time.  We finally converted in 2006, with developments in this direction taking place beginning in the 1980's and stretching into the 1990's.  Some of the influences that started me in this direction were those of C.S. Lewis and Dr. Francis Schaeffer.  

My wife and I were not as hung up over the use of "King James English" as those who came before us into the Western Rite of Holy Orthodoxy.  We are products of a different time.

My wife was raised an Episcopalian, but later became a "born again" worshipper at an Assembly of God church in Colorado Springs.  During her college days, she attended Baptist Churches and Protestant College Campus groups.

I attended Biola University, transferred to Colorado Baptist University, took graduate courses at Pat Robertson's Regent University, and evolved from my Baptist roots through different Anglican jurisdictions, spent a year and a half in the LCMS Lutheran Church waiting for a time when my wife might convert to Holy Orthodoxy, and then finally made the journey to Saint Mark's in Denver while maintaining ties to Saint Catherine's Greek Orthodox Church in Greenwood Village.

With this background in Evangelical and Charismatic circles, the main versions of the Bible that I encountered were the New International Version, the New King James, The Revised Standard, and finally the English Standard Version, which is actually a pretty good translation.

When our conversion to Orthodoxy was complete, we picked up a copy of the Orthodox Study Bible, which features a new Old Testament translation from the Septuagint paired with the New Testament translation taken from the New King James version of the Bible. 

I was taught to love traditional language and music by my mother, who raised me in a way that is unusual in this day and age.  It was due to her influence that I moved in the Orthodox direction.  The Roman Catholic Church was implementing Vatican II during this time and most of the Protestant world was following their lead and "modernizing" everything to do with worship and church music.

About "Semi Conversion" to Holy Orthodoxy

Sudeacon Joseph has said that many of us who convert to Holy Orthodoxy only semi convert. But here is another way to look at it:  God leads many of us who are converts from western christian confessions and traditions by steadily divorcing us from our past errors and moving us ever closer in the direction of Orthodox beliefs.

In my case, God had to first cleanse me of common Baptist errors such as Pre-millenial Dispensationalism, Rapturist and Antinomian "Personal Savior" easy believism and "Eternal Security" heresies.

Then, he had to separate me from other protestant errors such as "Semi - Deism" where certain gifts of the Holy Spirit were for a bygone age and no longer operative in modern times and where a person could not expect to be delivered from demonic bondage and oppression or supernaturally healed of diseases or distresses.

He also had to instill in me a love of the Holy Eucharist and Liturgical worship and He had to break me of protestant iconoclasm.  Time spent as an Anglican helped greatly with this process.

Perhaps the biggest false doctrine God had to bring me out of was the belief that Jesus could be my Savior without being The Lord of my life.

And finally, God brought me to Holy Orthodoxy when my own belief system was turned on it's head:  Instead of believing that one decision had saved me, I fell into the despair of believing that one sin had damned me forever.  Saint Silouan's holy example became a help to me later, since he went through similar struggles.

It was easy for Satan to turn heterodox doctrines against me to the detriment of my soul. Heresy is cruel to its adherents.

I have accepted every basic Eastern Orthodox doctrine that has been presented to me, but I will say this: ALL CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES DOUBT ASPECTS OF THEIR OWN FAITH.

And I've run into Eastern Rite Orthodox who don't observe any of the fasting disciplines of The Church, who don't regularly go to Confession, who hardly ever partake of the Eucharist, and whose women don't cover their heads or dress modestly.

So the problem of "semi-conversion" would not just appear to be a Western Rite issue.

Again, I would mention that Subdeacon Joseph is a member of the clergy, and as such is probably much more devoted in his faith than some of the ordinary laymen and laywomen of many an Orthodox parish.

I, too, as a minor order member of the clerical ranks, am probably more interested in these matters than some laymen and laywomen who just try to go about their daily lives in humble, if simple obedience to our Church.

I believe that with the scandal of the division of Christians, that all of us sometimes have doubts.  One of my deepest frustrations is that there are four ancient christian groups who name the name of "Christian" who claim the exclusive title of The Church:  These are, of course, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Chaldean Church, or The Assyrian Church of the East.

I have settled on Holy Orthodoxy as being the purest form of Christianity that exists, but I've come to realize that even though we are The Church, that the "Ancient Undivided Christian Church" we always talk about persisted, but the people who called themselves "Christians" did suffer from divisions starting in A.D. 431 with the second major division taking place in A.D. 461.

And so I've often asked this question:  "Why didn't The Lord appear to these ancient christians at these key times and stave off these divisions?  And why if Church Unity is so important, did not all the Bishops refuse to budge until the Holy Spirit brought them back to unity?"

The right conclusion, even if somewhat unsatisfying at times is the following:  He allowed us our free will and we divided one from another in our fallenness.

Even though I've come to accept that The Church is, indeed, Infallible, I know that her members certainly aren't.  I first accepted this belief because I concluded that the alternative of a fallible church was a terrible one, and unacceptable.

It is hard to get a complete handle on "Things that are at variance with Orthodoxy."  It is easy to get the basics right, but there are more complicated matters that only the highest ranks of the clergy and monastics came truly come to grips with, and these over hundreds of years.

This is why The Rudder is a record of all the decisions about canon law without being a completely binding document for Orthodox Christians.  Some of the canons have been deemed to be culturally bound to the times they were written in.

This is why we have "Great Synods of the Orthodox Church" every now and then.  So we can iron out certain things through the guidance of the Holy Spirit working through the clergy and laity until agreement is reached.

As Orthodox Christians, we no more take the Bible alone than we take the Canons alone.  Sola Scriptura does not apply, neither does Sola Canonica.  The living tradition of The Church becomes the final arbiter.

So these thoughts above are my best attempt at trying to address the questions raised by my brother in Christ.

Fr. John Connely, my priest, believes that The Book of Common Prayer can be a valid form to worship God with.  So do the leaders of the Western Rite movement in Holy Orthodoxy.

These matters are for The Church to decide, and not us as individuals.  And for now, Antioch has allowed the use of these liturgies to stand.

Is it possible that God will reverse these decisions?  I suppose so.  He is God.  Let Him do what is Right in His Eyes.

But I believe that some form of The Western Rite movement is here to stay.

I believe this because I don't believe He would allow the Roman Catholics to be better at something than we who are The Church are at something.

Why would he be more compassionate with them and working through them than with us and through us?

That wouldn't make any sense at all.

I think the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is setting up an alternative Anglican structure at this time, and the fact that Metropolitan Jonah has been reportedly setting up a similar arrangement might mean The Holy Spirit is at work.

I also think that these high ranking leaders keep in contact with each other more than we know.

This past Sunday I heard from a subdeacon at my parish that Bishop Hilarion was at the Vatican two weeks ago.  Bishop Hilarion knows Metropolitan Kyrill, and Metropolitan Kyrill of Russia knows Metropolitan Jonah.  And I'm sure Pope Benedict knows all three of these Holy men.

These Christian leaders are responsible men.  I'm sure as responsible men, they realize it is important to keep in touch with one another for the sake of a unified Christian witness to the watching world.

So my guess is that some "cross-pollenization" might be taking place.

We need to expect great things from our Great God.  He is able to bring our schisms to an end, and we need to expect that He might do so.

There need be no division between Eastern Rite Orthodox and Western Rite Orthodox.  If there is a division, it is our fault and not God's.

My conclusion is this:  Apparent shortcomings of Western Rite Orthodox Christians in the view of Eastern Rite Orthodox Christians are sometimes more a matter of culture than a matter of falling short of our Holy religion.  Let us think the best of each other and not the worst.

Sincerely in the Blessed Trinity,

Columba Silouan 

Some Thoughts on Questions Raised

Good afternoon dear readers.

I was asked some questions during this process of discussing a possible new Anglican diocese and I thought about these all day while I was at work.

The following are only my opinions and are not reflective of "official Orthodoxy."

First, it was alleged that those of us who are members in good standing of Orthodox parishes that are Western Rite are "Semi-Converts."

Well, if being a "semi-convert" means someone who regularly goes to confession with a canonical Orthodox priest, one who regularly attends the Divine Liturgy, one who tries to keep the times of abstinence and fasting during the Church Year, one who tithes faithfully to his or her parish, one who regularly reads up on Orthodox subjects and who reads Orthodox books, one who wholeheartedly believes in all Orthodox theology and doctrine, one who prays the Jesus Prayer, one who prays for his or her parish Priest, one who has a Spiritual Father and Father Confessor, then may all of us be "semi-converts."

I'll have more to say about this and other subjects in a future posting.

In the meantime a picture paints a thousand words, so I'll link to a church website that illustrates what I mean by creating a better space for Anglicans (and by extension other converts from the western cultural church traditions) to illustrate what I mean:

http://www.walsingham-church.org/photos

If the Roman Catholic Church can allow former Anglicans the kind of freedom it takes to have their own architecture and music, why is it that we can't be granted the same freedoms in the Holy Orthodox Church?

As long as all Orthodox elements are present in a parish community, why is the kind of architecture and music practiced at Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston off limits?

The current Western Rite is good, but it could be better.

It is my personal opinion that the Romanesque architecture mandated by the Western Rite of Antioch is "over-thinking the plumbing."

Some food for thought:  If in our wildest dreams as Orthodox Christians the whole realm of England decided to convert to Holy Orthodoxy in a gigantic move of the Lord in that country, do you really suppose they would leave all their church forms behind?

Rather, they would blend their forms, some of which are ancient, with Orthodox forms and develop their own unique style and culture while becoming completely Orthodox in doctrine and practice.

Those of us who favor a "Western Rite" in Orthodoxy don't intend to take the entire Orthodox Church over, driving out the Eastern Rite and the Eastern forms.

We just want our own forms included in the Church as well.

I wouldn't have a problem with making the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom the core liturgy in the Western Rite as long as Western Forms could be built around it.

Blessings in the Holy Trinity, One God.

Columba Siluoan

Notes From The Underground Part Two

Good evening once again.

What follows are the postings on NFTU and my responses to them.  The tone was mostly polite and I found it to be a good experience overall.

Wed Oct 21 2009 

From:  Notes from the underground.  

True Orthodox and Ecumenical News 

"Anglican Diocese" of the OCA?!?!? 

Posted by Subdeacon Joseph Tuesday, October 20 

We can't really be reading this. More Angliochians? More semi-convert Anglican parishes? More people who have no clue as to what Western Orthodoxy is taken in to the OCA? More "Liturgy Of St Tikhon" (Or "LOST" for short) parishes?

The whole post can be found linked to the title but if this really came from St Mark's Angliochian Parish in Denver, then we can be sure this may well be happening. 

Click the story below to see it....

Comments that followed:

Good evening. 

Okay, that would be my web blog. Thanks for increasing traffic on it. I wasn't aware it was even searchable.  Nice. 

My name is Columba Silouan and I'm a tonsured lay reader at Saint Marks. 

It's high time for the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole to broaden their view of reaching out to Anglicans. 

The Roman Catholic Church has just announced that their doors are open for the Traditional Anglican Communion to enter in large numbers. 

And so we are going to do . . . what exactly? 

In my opinion, we need to be as generous and proactive as the Romans. Bravo for Metropolitan Jonah's efforts and vision. A Western Rite in the OCA might be a better one than the one we have in Antioch. 

Otherwise, Rome will gain all the Anglican converts while we sit on our hands with our noses in the air. 

I, too am an ex-Anglican and I fervently pray that all that was good and beautiful in the church of my heritage and ancestry will be redeemed and preserved in Holy Orthodoxy.  The Anglican movement is dead, and those of us who were Anglicans are looking for Good Samaritans, not those who pass by the road on the other side. 

I know many Eastern Rite Orthodox who are warm, humble and holy people, including my Greek Orthodox Confessor, Fr. Lou at Saint Catherine's in Denver. 

I also have encountered some who are disdainful snobs who think that anything western at all is heterodox and off limits. 

I can assure you that you won't win many converts from Anglicanism with attitudes of the latter nature. 

Sincerely in the Blessed Trinity, 
Columba Silouan

Note:  I have to admit here that I was a tad frustrated at the time I posted my first comment.  I had just learned of the Roman Catholic action of setting up a "constitution" by which Anglicans can be received into the RCC.  I didn't believe it was time to quibble when our biggest ecclesiastical competitors had made such a bold, and in my estimation, generous move.
I also may have been a bit harsh in my assessment that the overall Anglican movement is dead.  Apart from Holy Church, however, it is certainly wounded.  

The next post is from Subdeacon Joseph from New York:

Dear Columba Silouan, 

You write, "I also have encountered some who are disdainful snobs who think that anything western at all is heterodox and off limits.... I can assure you that you won't win many converts from Anglicanism with attitudes of the latter nature. " 

I don't have a problem with Western rites as long as they are Orthodox; it has long been a position of mine that the "Liturgy of St Tikhon" is very questionable. I myself pray using a Western Rite, but I am certain it is Orthodox by *its nature* (knowing where the text comes from) as opposed to it being Orthodox by *my nature* (because it is familiar to me in my youth-- much of what is Western and actually Orthodox was not-- and I just happen to be Orthodox). 

In my Archdiocese we allow the use of a generally Sarum (11th century) recension of the Roman rite. These texts are clearly Orthodox in their doctrinal content and we know how to use them. It's not "liturgical archaeology", as many falsely claim, since any educated High Church Anglican has seen a Sarum Liturgy. I see no reason to use false BCP or 
AM constructions. We shall never see properly converted English Orthodox of Western provenance if we keep offering bread for a stone. As for Rome taking them; well, Rome approved many of Cranmer's modifications with the New Mass, so I think we can agree that at the least, Rome is a place where those who cannot accept that the post-schism and Protestant nature of their liturgical and spiritual practices are actually post schism and Protestant would be more than 
welcome. 

Still, I sense we'll be seeing more of the LOST. And that saddens me. Because in the desire to preserve Anglican tradition, we are forgetting genuine English Orthodox tradition. 

-- 
In Christ, 
Subdeacon Joseph Suaiden 
St Eulalia Orthodox Mission, Bronx NY

The Second Comment in response to my first posting was 

less sympathetic to Western Rite Orthodoxy in general:

Jonathan· 1 day ago

I personally feel that 'Western Rite' Orthodoxy is a strange and possibly dangerous thing, since it doesn't have a continuous tradition in Orthodoxy, unlike the Eastern Rite. It would certainly be better to dig up an old Latin rite from the days when the Latin Church still held to Orthodox doctrine, as St John Maximovich tried to do when he was Archbishop of Western Europe, rather than try to adapt a rite born in the midst of heresy, such as the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, as St Tikhon tried to do. 

But even the ancient Orthodox Latin rites have fallen into disuse, and I think it's unwise to take any liturgy out of its historical context, mainly because in all these rites there is a wealth of unwritten tradition that accompanies what has been written down. In the Eastern Rite, it is possible for Westerners to draw upon this unbroken tradition to supplement the codified rituals; in the 'Western Rite', the oral tradition is lost and one has to 'reconstruct' it based on one's personal reading of history, which is almost bound to lead to errors. 
If even St Tikhon, who was born and bred in the Orthodox faith, was unable successfully to recreate the heretical Anglican rite as an Orthodox rite, how much less are we unsaintly converts?

My next posting follows and was partly in response to the idea that the Sarum Rite would be a better Western Rite to use than the 1928 BCP / Liturgy of Saint Tikhon:

Good evening. This is Columba again. 

I've got no problem with the idea of using the Sarum Rite. Supposedly much of the BCP had as it's primary source the Sarum Rite. But the Western Rite goes beyond just the core liturgy. One small for instance is that we sometimes pray The Stations of the Cross as Western Rite Orthodox. And many Orthodox parishes of both rites have started to use stained glass in their churches. 

The Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese also allows the use of music from various western sources, including Gregorian Chant, Anglican Plainchant and hymns drawn from sources as late as the 19th century. 

I'm thinking here of hymnody by John and Charles Wesley and Isaac Watts, to name only three sources. 

In the Western Rite, we also use Bach, Handel, Brahms, Mendohlsen, Motzart, Beethoven, Haydn and countless other western composers whose music became the backbone of some of the greatest western hymns, anthems and oratorios of the faith. 

These hymns don't take over the entire service by any means, but they do well at various points in a Western Rite service. The predominate form of music in our services is still chanting, which is the backbone of Orthodox music. 

And of course, I wouldn't advocate changing things like Icons or Iconography AT ALL. But using western music is a different matter in my opinion. Most converts come to the use of Icons without a background involving them. They don't come to church music without a background, however. 

Now as Orthodox Christians, we should screen the words of western hymns to ensure that they fully comply with Eastern Orthodox Theology, but if you truly want to reach Christians from all the western confessions you need to have the option of incorporating their greatest works of music. 

Bishop Basil of the Diocese of Wichita once attended a high mass at an Episcopal Cathedral back in the days before many of the modern Episcopal innovations and heresies occurred. He wept because he realized this form of worship was in serious danger of dying out. 

Its in danger of dying out because modern protestants are stampeding en - masse to entertainment based and trendy worship forms. And Vatican II in the Roman Catholic Church didn't help matters, either. 

The only places left where traditional style western worship is truly safe is in isolated pockets of traditional Roman Catholics, a few Presbyterian churches, the LCMS, perhaps WELS, the Traditional Anglican Communion, other traditional groups of a similar nature, and Western Rite Orthodoxy. 

In my opinion, reaching America for Eastern Orthodoxy must take into account the entire remaining ecclesiastical church culture of the target country. We can't do it exactly like Saint's Cyril and Methodius did it because this culture already has a remnant christian culture present where Holy Russia was a completely pagan country. 

I was taught as a catechumen that the Orthodox Church knows where The Church is, but can't state where The Church isn't. It isn't entirely the fault of my American and English forefathers that Holy Orthodoxy was lost to them. And I believe in a God who preserved a "faithful remnant" in the middle of imperfect "church" situations.

The holiest of the Protestants and Roman Catholics of non-orthodox countries nevertheless knew God. Even the Orthodox believe that men like George Herbert, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein walked with God and had creative works that were inspired by the life (energies) of God. 

And think of Johann Sebastian Bach who titled all of his music "To The Glory of God." 

The Great Schism was a terrible tragedy, not just a crime committed by the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation was also a great tragedy. 
I'm sure God has grieved the consequences that millions of innocent Christians suffered from these two events. 

We can have a larger view of Orthodox cultural engagement without compromising our beliefs. Our God is big enough to handle it if we adopt such a perspective. 

You may win converts and deny them their heritage, but that will make for converts who are saddened at their very core by the loss of that heritage. And that sadness is an unnecessary burden in a world that already saddles us with many a burden. 

I believe that BOTH rites are necessary to have a healthy Orthodox Church in America. There are many people who have been cut off from the heritage of the west due to their education or background or through complete disinterest. The Eastern Rite can be for them a great discovery of faith and the joy of worshipping in a traditional and rooted way. I don't see why we can't use both Rites to grow parishes. 

For instance, why can't a parish be planted with two services available, one Eastern Rite and one Western Rite with both done with the greatest amount of excellence possible? 

Doing such a thing would be casting the widest possible net. 

Many times as Orthodox Christians we limit ourselves unnecessarily. 

At any rate, I need to be humble and open to whatever God is trying to teach me personally about this subject. If the Western Rite is truly wrong, I would hope that the entire Orthodox Church would convene a church council of some sort to come to a resolution about it. 

I took my family for a visit to an OCA Eastern Rite parish last Sunday to try and make some contacts for dreams of an Orthodox mission in Parker. This dream and hope was the original idea behind my small blog. I found the Eastern Rite that was practiced there to be uplifting and holy. 

But I still love the Western Rite and hope to see God work through it as well. 

Sincerely in the Blessed, Kind, Merciful and Holy Trinity, 

Columba Silouan

Brother Jonathan then wrote the following:

Columba Silouan, you wrote:"It's high time for the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole to broaden their view of reaching out to Anglicans." 

Please define what you mean by, "reaching out"? 

Also, include the rudder index to each canon you may specify, as well as to which rudder you are using. 

I am unfamiliar with such a canon or an economia made on behalf of the Orthodox Church, please, exemplify what you mean to demonstrate by Church Law.

Columba, my main suspicion about Western Rite Orthodoxy is that it is not organic. Tradition is not something that can be invented anew. Think of it as the life-force of a tree or a vine: you can graft branches onto the tree, but it depends how long the branch has been severed. If the branch still has life in it, it will continue to grow after being grafted, but if it has long since died and dried out, it will not come back to life. The West has been cut off from the life-giving Tree of the Church for a thousand years. Its ancient rites are like dried out branches, which have lost the life of unbroken Tradition, while the post-Schism rites never had life to begin with. 

If converts are unwilling to accept that, that means they have not accepted that hitherto they have not been practicing true Orthodox Christianity, but a heretical pseudo-Christianity, which means they are still not fully converted.Reply0Jonathan· 1 hour agoAnd no, the Orthodox do NOT believe that the 'holiest' of the Catholics and Protestants (whatever 'holy' is supposed to mean outside the Church) 'knew' God or 'walked with' God. 

This doesn't mean everything they wrote was worthless, but if they happened to write something compatible with our Faith, that does not take away from the fact that they were heretics and not part of the Church. Their ultimate fates are in God's hands, but we cannot use them to say it's possible to be saved outside the Church, which goes clear against Orthodox teaching. It's like saying that it's fine to be a pagan because many pagan Greek philosophers happened to say wise things despite their spiritual darkness.

To which I responded thusly:

Hello again, brothers and sisters. 

As far as referring to The Rudder and The Canons goes about this subject, all I have to say in response is that our Holy Orthodox Church is already in violation of some of the canons and especially when it comes to multiple Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States, which is a far more serious matter than how we set up a structure for converts from Anglicanism. 

And the Western Rite isn't just an outreach to Anglicans, either. I was a Baptist before I converted to Anglicanism and then later to Holy Orthodoxy. Some of the music in our Hymns at Saint Marks was even sung by the baptist churches I was a part of. 

Western Rite Orthodoxy can appeal to Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and even Baptists. That's why I believe it's a good thing. 

Okay, Orthodoxy OFFICIALLY might not state that people such as C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, or for that matter, Corrie Ten Boom and Mother Theresa of Calcutta knew God, but most Orthodox people know better than that. We might not think these heterodox christians knew Him as well as they should, but it is an extremely strange view of GOD to hold that only those Christians who have the blessing of being within The Church truly know God. Even Jesus told those who were offficially "IN" the ancient Jewish "church" that they DIDN'T know him. I'm talking about the Scribes and Pharisees, folks, who were "Officially" spotless but inwardly were wolves that Christ didn't recognize as being His. 

I'm sure Jesus hasn't changed in the past 2,000 years in these matters. 

Even our Holy Monks hope that all people may one day be saved. That speaks to me of a very generous attitude on the part of our Lord. Now, I do think some people will be lost, but one thing I love about Orthodoxy is the hope that the majority of all people God has created might be saved in the end. I found Protestantism pretty negative in that regard where most people would be lost in the end. 

Again, with the formula that I was taught as a Catechumen, you can't state with certainty that the people I've mentioned here were not imperfectly a part of The Church, even if they were outside it's visible boundaries. Even the Roman Catholic Church isn't so narrow about this issue.  

Jesus said to us that "we will know them by their fruit."  He also told His Disciples that "Everyone who is not against us is for us."

I will say in conclusion that I don't accept all modern views about what Orthodoxy believes about these matters. One of my Orthodox textbooks I've read, The Mystery of Faith, posits the idea that the Fathers of the Church were less narrow in their views than we modern Orthodox are and have become about them. 

Why does the heterodox Roman Catholic Church seem to have a more wholesome and generous attitude about these matters than some of us? We are the Church, they are short of the Church. But sometimes they do put us to shame with their liberality of spirit. 

I learned some of these ways of thinking from the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Western Rite. I do think the Greeks are sometimes more open minded about these things. Sometimes some of them are too open minded. But I appreciate their warm and generous attitudes as well. 

Saint Silouan the Athonite would probably emphasize more of God's love and compassion. This is in part why I adopted his name as one of my Orthodox names. He was a remarkable example of the love of Christ. 

I adopted the other name, Columba, in honor of Saint Columba, who was a very flawed monk before he became a holy saint. So it is with me currently and a layperson who tries to repent in the "monastery" of my family, church and job, so I hope to become someday. 

I'm looking forward to the first modern Western Rite saint being canonized. I think someday it will happen. 

Sincerely in Christ, 

Columba

Notes From The Underground Finds This Blog

Good Evening and Greetings in the Most Holy Trinity, One God.

Well my little blog has been discovered.  My post about the strong possibility of a new Western Rite / Anglican Diocese has raised some eyebrows in some quarters of the Orthodox Web Blog World.

I don't have much time to cover this development this evening, but I can say that the Notes From The Underground web blog somehow found my Anglican Diocese Post and it concerned them, to say the least.

I will post everything related to this soon.  I will also say that no one at Saint Mark's in Denver cautioned me about mentioning this bit of news.  I don't think it's anything to be furtive about.  Of course, I'm strongly in favor of such a development, and I realize some Eastern Rite Orthodox are probably firmly opposed to it.  We can agree to disagree about this and remain brothers and sisters in the bonds of love.

I primary use this blog to practice my writing and was unaware that it could be found, although I'm pleased as punch that it was.  Must be the inner journalist in me.

Again, the primary purpose for Orthodox Parker is to generate interest in an Orthodox Mission to the town of Parker, Colorado.

My original hope was that the mission would be a Western Rite mission, but I'm open to a different outcome.

God's will be done.

Sincerely in the Holy Trinity,

Columba Silouan

New Western Rite in the OCA

Greetings in Christ.  

Last Sunday, news of the conference at Nashotah House between Metropolitan Jonah, Saint Vladimir's Seminary Dean Chad Hatfield, and conservative Anglican Leaders was reviewed by our parish priest at Saint Marks in Denver.

One of the major announcements during Sunday School was that Metropolitan Jonah, and by extension the OCA, is proposing a new diocese for the OCA called The Anglican Diocese.

This would be a Western Rite diocese that would mirror other ethnic dioceses that currently exist in the OCA such as the Bulgarian Diocese, the Albanian Diocese, etc.  This Diocese would allow the customs and culture of Anglican converts to Holy Orthodoxy to be preserved and practiced freely.

The OCA also seems to have regional dioceses, so they have the best of both worlds, so to speak.

The new Anglican Diocese would have it's own Bishop, which would be a step forward for the Western Rite overall.  The Antiochian Western Rite currently has a Dean, but not a Bishop.

Of course, this is not to say that the Diocesan Bishops Antioch has aren't excellent.

A Western Rite in the OCA would be a wonderful thing.  Please keep this possibility in your prayers.

Columba Silouan

The OCA Targets Parker

A few weeks ago, during the Feast of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, I learned from local Orthodox priest Fr. David Mustian that the OCA has targeted Parker for an Orthodox mission.

The Orthodox Church in America had as it's local dean a wonderful priest named Fr. Hirsch, who died over the summer.  He was the main contact for this effort.

This is an answer to my prayers, but is not without a price.

The OCA has no Western Rite and many among its ranks are not favorable towards the Western Rite.

Another local priest, Fr. John Armstrong is one of the remaining contacts for this missionary effort.  I've e-mailed him once and received a kind response confirming the plans of the OCA, and called him and talked to him.

I've asked my family to make a pilgrimage to Saint Herman's Orthodox Church a couple of Sundays from now in an attempt to cultivate ties with Fr. Armstrong and other Parker residents who might attend Saint Herman's.

I also broached the subject of a Western Rite presence in any new parish, in the form of a chapel or oratory.

Please stay tuned on further developments.

Columba Silouoan.