Dialogue with an Interested Party

Hi Parker,

My name is Jim, and I have been reading your blog. I like it! I also frequent the RH forum, and try to defend Orthodoxy whenever it comes under fire. Those attempts are usually rabidly resisted by my forum mates, one never knows.

I've even started a few threads trying to introduce folks to it, even though I myself am not Eastern Orthodox. I find Orthodoxy fascinating, compelling, and mysterious. Part of that is due to its ancient heritage, roots that go straight back to the founding of the faith by Jesus and the ante-nicene church fathers.

I am interested in your journey, the adjustments you've had to make as you've made the transition, as well as doctrines that you may have struggled with and successfully integrated into your own faith. As an example, the use of icons was highly offensive to me, in my protestant mind akin to idols and imagery. And I did not understand the veneration of them, to be honest I am not sure that I still do, but I accept that as something that I just don't get.

I am not Orthodox yet, content right now to perch in the Anglican Mission in America. But under the right circumstances, and depending on how the AMiA develops, I may be there sooner than I think.

Anyway, keep blogging, I will be reading and learning. Please feel free to email me to discuss this, I am very interested in your journey,

Thank you so much, and peace to you,

Jim

Dear Jim,

Thanks for writing me and for your kind comments. My response might be kind of lengthy. I hope you don't mind. This issue can be multi-faceted.

I started out my Christian journey as a fundamentalist and dispensationalist Independent Baptist. The theology behind IB Christianity has serious flaws and when I
attempted to base my life on these flaws, I found my life didn't work.

There is a phrase in Orthodox circles that goes something like this: Heresy is cruel to those who follow and practice it. I found this to be true.

My journey into Orthodoxy had its roots in the writings and works of Dr. Francis Schaeffer (and his son Frank's writings as well). Growing up I also loved the writings of C.S. Lewis, so these two influences taken together were not going to let me rest easily in most Protestant churches.

Some of these books were: How Should We Then Live? The Great Evangelical Disaster and Addicted to Mediocrity. The emphasis of Dr. Schaeffer was "The Lordship of Christ in all areas of life." Dr. Schaeffer was interested in making Christ Lord in the Arts and in Culture. The nature of the religious art and culture I loved was going to inevitably lead me somewhere.

My favorite music, for example was baroque classical music and that meant Bach and Handel. My favorite hymns, musically speaking, also came primarily from the same time
period.

Hymns by Isaac Watts and The Wesleys and the music these hymns were set to were particularly good. I also loved church music from even earlier periods going back to the most ancient centuries of the church.

My favorite type of church architecture was also going to lead in a certain direction. I loved stained glass, pipe organs and the great cathedrals of Europe most of all.

In short, my tastes in church expression were Traditional. I deeply needed the worship to be reverent, deep and joyful. These things communicated the greatness of God to my deep heart. JE is right to emphasize the deep heart and how it speaks to us.

Most hymns from the Romantic period and those influenced by the 18th and 19th centuries and American revivalism left me cold. There were a few good hymns from this period, but most of the others were of the "bringing in the sheaves"
variety, and these just didn't cut it.

When I graduated from High School I began to search for a college to attend. I ultimately applied for and was accepted to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (Biola University).

At Biola, my Baptist underpinnings began to be challenged and knocked out from under me one by one. My beliefs about the end times and The Rapture were the first to go,
since as someone interested in the Arts and Culture, I started to desire enough time down here to make a difference.

A key book was The Meaning of the Millenium, by one Dr. Clouse (I think that was his name).

Also at Biola, I ran squarely into aspects of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements for the first time which I couldn't just escape by my decisions on who to associate with or where to attend church.

These charismatics were challenging some important errors I was holding to at the time: Cessation of Miracles and sign gifts and easy "Christ as personal savior" believism.

These charismatics had some significant errors of their own, but where they were challenging me was crucial.

Through a series of life experiences The Lord shook me to my foundations: That Christ must be Lord of my life in order for me to truly be "saved" was a viewpoint I hated and feared because it made me very insecure. That "Spiritual Warfare" was still ongoing and serious was also disturbing to me.

I knew that in some areas of my life that Jesus was most certainly NOT my Lord. The problem with my theology of the time was that it allowed me to keep things that way and be "okay" because I had "eternal security" and salvation was by "grace alone."

I was "flying casual" when some serious flying was what was needed.

My belief that the more spectacular spiritual gifts had ceased was a decision to side with The Enlightenment and the resulting skepticism it generated. Either God was
an Interventionist God or He wasn't. It wasn't a long distance from the Enlightenment to the Deism of some of the Founding Fathers of the United States, for example.

Thomas Jefferson wouldn't have done that "cut and paste" job on the Holy Scriptures if he had still believed in the Holy Tradition of The Church.

Some of the Christian leaders during my time at Biola were people like Dr. John MacArthur Jr. who was arguing the Lordship Salvation perspective and even the late Christian singer Keith Green (Memory Eternal), who wrote pamphlets about "What's Wrong with The Gospel - the Added Parts and the Missing Parts."

The christian "relativism" I was running into at Biola wasn't helping me with my life. Who really spoke for God? Everyone had their own favorite "private interpretation" or Christian leader they favored. Competing and contradictory claims led to the loss of my direction in life.

And I knew the Bible! The problem was, people used the Bible in different and contradictory ways.

Other issues I ran into at Biola were over "christian counselling" and the validity of relying on "Christian Psychology" or just relying on the Bible and the church.

After getting "wiped out" at Biola, I transferred to Colorado Baptist University in Denver, finished up and attempted to regroup. I picked up the Schaefferian thread once more and applied and was accepted to Regent University in Virginia Beach, VA(Pat Robertson's Graduate School).

I continued to follow and read the works of Frank Schaeffer IV: Sham Pearls for Real Swine and Dancing Alone.

Frank Schaeffer talked about "the Historic Church" But equating it exclusively with The Orthodox Church just didn't compute for me at that time. So I started to look for historical churches.

I set out to, once again, pursue the career of being a Christian Journalist and to be a crusader in the Christian Right.

But this ultimately led me to apathy and dissilusionment. Fighting the "Culture Wars" didn't fill my inner emptiness.

During this time I met an older Roman Catholic artist friend and began to hang out with her. I also had a Jesuit professor at Regent I liked, too. But I was still Protestant enough to object to the following doctrines: The Immaculate Conception
of Mary, the celibate priesthood, prayers for the dead and The Mass as a re-sacrifice of Christ over and over.

But then I discovered the Charismatic Episocopal Church.

At Regent, I had consented to become a "charismatic with a small c." I now believed all the gifts were for today and even dabbled with speaking in tongues, although I had no real enthusiasm for it.

The CEC was an Anglo-Catholic Anglican group. They were Catholics, but not Roman Catholics. There were no local CEC parishes, so I began to attend a charismatic Episcopal parish in TEC (formerly known as ECUSA) called Messiah Episcopal Church. I became acquainted with Prayer Book Worship and the Holy Eucharist and was converted to "The Real Presence of Christ" in the Eucharist perspective.

Little did I know about all the Episcopalian factions and controversies. What I did know about was that ECUSA was a liberal mainline church and that made me uneasy.

I also ran into the interesting dilemma that American Anglicans frequently face: The Theological Liberals were mostly traditional in worship style and culture, and the Theological "conservatives" were happy clappy.

I didn't mind Christian Contemporary Music in church as long as it was equally mixed with Great Hymns of the Faith. I also didn't mind Christian Rock Music, but I sure didn't want to listen to my Christian Rock during Mass!

In many charismatic Anglican parishes, however, the praise music tends to take over and leave no room for traditional worship at all.

When I left Virginia Beach and Graduate School (I didn't graduate although my grades were good) I returned to Colorado where I attended Beth-El Parish in the CEC. At Beth-El, I functioned as an acolyte and helped the priest at the Altar.

I was interested in the Holy Priesthood as well.

That parish failed and I decided to go to Christ Episcopal Church in Denver. It was from Christ Episcopal Church that I learned to love genuflecting when the cross passed by. My love for the Eucharist also deepened.

Those things, along with praying The Stations of The Cross began to lay the foundation of my not being scandalized by the use of Icons. That, plus reading the newsletter of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, Sursum Corda, for a couple of years led me to the Catholic Faith. Now, I needed to find the Church to practice it in.

I still had issues and fears with ECUSA, and so I teamed up with Fr. David Reagan (Memory Eternal) and attempted to "go independent" of ECUSA while attending an ECUSA parish.

But one thing I've learned since is that "You cannot be Orthodox as an individual."

I travelled with Fr. David to Tulsa, Oklahoma, where I was confirmed in the Evangelical Episcopal Church.

I decided to pursue the priesthood in this group, but God kept shutting the door.

The controversies in ECUSA led to Fr. Sandy Green (now Bishop Sandy) to form a "mission church in waiting" at Christ Church in Barns Hall. This new church was named Wellspring and was primarily composed of the Twenties and Thirties
group of Christ Church.

I was re-confirmed in ECUSA during this period.

Since you are in the AMiA, you know the history of the Denver Consecrations. While at Wellspring with my wife, Dianna (while at Christ Church, I found her and we
got married) I was involved in the life of that parish.

The contemporary nature of the worship at Wellspring was a source of great frustration. I ran the church website for over a year, put together a Stations of the Cross set for them and volunteered all over the place.

But Wellspring, as good as it was, wasn't "home." When we moved across town to be closer to my place of employment, we decided to leave Wellspring and church shop.

We temporarily landed at Church of the Holy Spirit in ECUSA, which was another church planted by Christ Church. We were assured that when the time came, this parish would "go with the Anglican Realignment." This has yet to happen.

CHS was pretty good, but it was totally contemporary, once again, and this made me frustrated. To survive, I would attend Saint Mary's Anglican Catholic Church once a month. Their service was traditional and VERY Anglican Catholic.

During this time, I attended an "Into to Orthodoxy" class offered by a Deacon at Saint Catherines Greek Orthodox Church, which is a large parish in Greenwood Village. The name of this Deacon was Father Evan Armatas. He is a young married with three kids and is sharp as a tack.

This class, in a word, was AWESOME. I've taken it twice, my wife going with me the second time around. Deacon Evan is now Father Evan. His class is available by Podcast. You might be able to find it at www.saintcatherinechurch.org

We had a small problem, however. Saint Catherine's was Eastern Rite. This meant no western hymns or music at all.

My wife wasn't totally comfortable and neither was I.

I proposed a Western Rite parish to her (our current church) But at the time she just hated it. We finally could be in ECUSA no longer and at the advice of one of the ministers at Church of the Holy Spirit (He was an ex-LCMS Lutheran Pastor), we tried out the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.

Grace Lutheran in Parker was a great church. It was "Confessional Lutheran" and Traditional. But it was Protestant and I was no longer a Protestant in my heart
(There's that word "heart" again).

We were at Grace for about a year-and-a half but I was still spiritually restless. I slowly realized that I didn't subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions. Then, one day, the Pastor preached a sermon about the necessity to honor the vow you make to the LCMS when you are received / confirmed. I realized I couldn't totally honor that vow with my beliefs.

Then Pastor Murphy taught a Sunday School class about mutual submission in the home. The Husband was to care for his wife, but his word was to be the final one when it came to major decisions like what church to attend.

My wife and I had a very deep discussion. Her need was to be in a church home that was our church home for the rest of our lives. My need was to be in a church where I
100% believed in the doctrine of the church.

We visited a couple of Roman Catholic Churches, but God didn't lead us there.

Finally, we landed at Saint Marks. Saint Marks is a Western Rite (Liturgy of Saint Tikhon) parish, and Dianna likes it and has made friends. We also have a dear friend from our Christ Church days who attends with us. He was there before us.

Our two children, Adam and Abbey, are doing fine at Saint Marks also.

The church has some young families and children and more are starting to come as well.

Best thing of all is, I am "home" at last.

While I believe the Eastern Orthodox Church has a strong claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I also realize that as John Eldredge has said that we are in a battle and this is a deeply broken and flawed world.

It was never the intention of Jesus Christ that there would be three seperate churches competing for the title of The Catholic Church. Currently at least three churches make this exclusive claim: The Roman Catholic Church is one, The Eastern Orthodox Church is another, and the Oriental Orthodox Church is the third.

But the two churches which hold to the Seven Councils of the Undivided Church are the RC and the EOC.

Fr. Evan's class made an excellent case for the Orthodox Church and coming in from the Protestant Side of things, that case made sense. Something caused the Protestant Reformation and the Great Schism and I believe the Roman Catholic errors are the best explanation for what happened.

The way I see Icons: Icons are "just the messenger" so don't shoot them. They are sacramental, just as the Holy Eucharist is sacramental, but less important than it is.

Icons are a "doorway" for us to see into heaven, see the saints represented by each one, and to be beckoned by the saints to persevere and follow their examples. If they could do it, so can we, and we are invited by them to do so.

We revere the people behind the Icons and ask for their prayers. They are part of the "great cloud of witnesses" and are deeply interested in what goes on here in the Church Militant. As Jesus said, He is not a God of the dead, but
of the living.

Since Christ came in the flesh, it is now permissible for us to represent him in the flesh, along with his followers down through the centuries.

We revere the Icons of the Saints much as sports fans revere those sports figures in the various "Halls of Fame" for each league.

Of course, our own Hall of Fame means much more, since we live for something which is not perishing.

I love NHL Hockey, for example and you can see the "reverence" for the Stanley Cup and all the great players who have gone before. If you go to the NHL Hall of Fame,
you have pictures of each player by their plaques.

Reverencing things is just a part of our nature that God created in us. I find the EOC use of Icons a much better use of that inherent reverence, that's all.

I pray for the reunion of East and West but in this fallen world, being an Orthodox Christian is a great place to be.

My life is still far from perfect, but at least I trust my church.

And I trust the Savior behind that church and believe that I can count on what I'm taught about Him and the Holy Trinity in Orthodoxy. "We have received the heavenly gift, we have beleived the True Faith, worshipping the Undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us."

Finally, to be honest, I still prefer stained glass to Icons. As a Western-Rite Orthodox Christian, I can literally have all of these wonderful things in one church.

At Saint Marks, we have God's Word, stained-glass, a pipe organ, a choir, Anglican plainchant, incense, Icons, a High Altar, vestments, a processional cross and Hymns from the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal, the Saint Ambrose Hymnal and the Saint Dunstan's Psalter. It's truly a feast which brings me closer to God.

And the best thing about Saint Marks is the people.

I've learned that life in Christ is a lifelong conversion.

I would recommend One Flew Over the Onion Dome by Father Joseph Huneycutt as a book to read about Southerners and Eastern Orthodoxy. That Website is called Orthodixie and you can google it (since I don't have the web address handy).

Fr. Stephen Freeman's "Glory to God for All Things" is also excellent.

Fr. Freeman is also a Southerner and a former Episcopal priest as well.

I would also recommend looking into all the Orthodox jurisdictions: Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, ROCOR, OCA and the Antiochian Archdiocese.

Hopefully if and when you're ready, you can find a parish in one of these Orthodox jurisdictions. Or, if there are enough like-minded people in your current parish who aren't "home" you can make the journey together.

Fr. Sandy was most kind in this regard. He once counselled a friend of mine to look into the Antiochians because this person wasn't at home in the AMiA.

This was kindly and pastoral of him, even though he's an AMiA Bishop.

If people aren't home, they just aren't and its better to get them home. Bishop
Sandy understood this in the case of my friend. My friend didn't convert because he is still too "Reformed" in his theology. But my friend and his wife are still unstable in their church affiliation, the last time I checked.

Orthodoxy is all about Godly and Spiritual Stability

I hope the length of this reponse wasn't a problem and I look forward to further discussions with you.

Feel free to ask more questions.

The Peace of the Lord be with You!

Columba Silouan


Dear Columba,

The length of the response is not a problem, the problem is that I am not literate enough in church history and understanding to adequately articulate all that I am feeling and know by faith.

I read Father Stephen's blog regularly, it is very good. It has proven very helpful to me already.

I grew up UMC, went into the AoG, but was never a regular speaker of tongues either. I don't hold anyone suspect that does, it just has never manifested in me in a meaningful. way. I felt out of sync because of that, so eventually left.

I went into the SBC for a time, but the legalism and easy believism killed my heart, I hung on for awhile but eventually left. I am ashamed to say that I went out into the world, I knew Jesus was real and true, but felt I had either sinned too badly (?) or was past saving, so I cashed in my inheritance and went on a trip.

I've come back, but this time things are different. I discover that I do not believe the classical Reformed doctrines, that I meet Christ in the Eucharist, and that I don't believe the sensational doctrines such as pre-trib Rapture, etc. The more I learn, the more I realize that I do not fit in a traditional Reformed setting. Hence my exploration of the AMiA.

I've read Schaeffer, and he started me thinking as well. I am now reading as much as I can of the ante-nicene fathers, and a History of Christian Thought by Paul Tillich (I know he's anathema, but it's a good history so far).. I've attended an OCA church, St. Innocent's, back home near my parents home. It was very nice, although I attended at Christmas and the intensity was a little more than I was ready for at the time. But I will go back next time I am home.

I can't take the purpose driven stuff, and need a thoughtful, reflective faith. If there was an Orthodox church nearby I would darken the door and inquire, but for now AMiA is as orthodox as I can get.

I will give you a more proper introduction later, but you may get a taste of me here at www.tcrossroads.blogspot.com. I write for myself, looking for my way, no one hardly ever reads it other than me.

But then it is about a journey.

Peace, Jim

Dear Jim

"I went into the SBC for a time, but the legalism and easy believism killed my heart, I hung on for awhile but eventually left. I am ashamed to say that I went out into the world, I knew Jesus was real and true, but felt I had either sinned too badly (?) or was past saving, so I cashed in my inheritance and went on a trip."

Now this is an issue I can really relate to as well.

At Biola, I, too, went through a phase / flirtation with packing it in spiritually. I grew up in a really dysfunctional home and some other things had gone wrong in my life as well. I remember sayng to God "If You let one more bad thing happen to me, I'm done."

That's not the smartest thing to say to God.

I also thought to myself: If this stuff isn't true, I really need to start seeking my own happiness and success. That last was also a very bad idea.

God seemed to send stern discipline as a result of these bad attitudes: I developed a bone-marrow disorder that required a bone-marrow transplant. After I recovered from that one and after I made it back to Biola the final time before I finally left, I ran headlong into some Arminian Pentecostalists who were big on Bible verses like Hebrews 6:1-6: "It is impossible for those who have been once enlightened, who have tasted of the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to be renewed again to repentance."

This verse haunted me for many long years afterwards. In some ways this verse and the examples of Biblical people like Cain, Esau, King Saul and Judas has caused me more spiritual anguish than all the false doctrines I've believed down through the years.

A number of things in Orthodoxy have helped me with this. First is the example of one of my patron saints, Saint Silouan the Athonite.

Saint Silouan had a terrible 15 Year experience with Spiritual Dryness / Despair that was finally overcome when Jesus revealed to him "Keep thy mind in hell and despair not."

Fr. Evan recently responded to my question about this topic with this: We can make things impossible for ourselves, but nothing is impossible with God. Finally a little known secret about Orthodoxy is a belief shared by many of the Monks: "Dare we hope for the salvation of all?"

The Orthodox Church emphatically does not teach that everyone will be saved, however, in Orthodoxy, people can be prayed out of hell and there is a hope that perhaps a majority of people may be saved as opposed to a small minority.

This kind of reminds me of the C.S. Lewis book The Great Divorce, where some of the "ghosts" crawled out of hell literally for miles and miles and escaped it. I still struggle with this one, however, and your prayers in this area would be greatly appreciated. If you are suprised by that last aspect of EO I mentioned, you might ask Fr. Freeman about it. I would be very interested in his answer. As a convert, himself, I wonder what his take on this is.

Christ is in our midst!

Columba Silouan

Dear Columba,

I must say that we have walked parallel paths, the scriptures from Hebrews being ones that had begun to torment me in the AoG, and frankly had even after I walked away.

I had been enlightened, and knew the truth, I was just not letting it live through me.

My understanding about being unsaveable now is different from when I was younger, I see God's grace as being larger than I ever gave Him credit for it being. And the acts of the Spirit in prompting us toward godliness in a practical sense is so much more a real part of this life, we are not left alone. God has not left me alone, that I know.

Your emails have been extremely helpful and encouraging to me, simply by knowing that someone else has been on the same journey, and has been turning in the same way at these similar signposts. Mine journey is not well thought out, but it is more intuitive, things that do or do not line up with truth as I have experienced it have turned me this direction.

Being Reformed, the two biggest hang-ups I had were icons and Mary.

I think that what you said about icons is my current attitude and understanding about them, and to me that has in theory become a non-issue. I can accept that, understand it, but it may take some getting used to. As some may say, it may be an aquired taste.

Issues surrounding Mary are really my last major stumbling block to being "in communion" with EO. And I am afraid that these vestiges of rabid protestantism might be harder to root out, although nothing is impossible with God.

I will be reading some on this soon, and will want to talk to you about it as well. I like your sensibility and approach to these things, but then you have also come to this place from a similar direction, so you do understand my concerns and "hangups". LOL!

Is your real name Columba (I think not !?)?, but is that what I should call you? It does not matter to me, friend, whatever you prefer. My friends genrally just call me Jim. Peace!



Dear brother Jim, My real name is -------------.

In Orthodoxy, it is tradition to be given a new name upon entering The Church. You might recall those verses in Revelation that mention God giving us a new name. Like you, I am ashamed over things in my past. I've failed a lot and really want my life in Orthodoxy to be a clean break from the past.

I chose Saint Columba as my first Patron Saint because he sinned greatly out of Anger and Pride before he repented and became "The Missionary to Scotland." There is a verse that states "Anger does not bring about the righteous life that God Desires."

Of course, I chose Saint Silouan as my second Patron Saint because of his struggle with Despair. And in Orthodoxy, there is a sense that our Patron Saints are introduced to us more than being chosen by us. I can testify to this as well. It seemed to me that God directed me to these two patrons, and being in the Western Rite, it is super that I have one Saint from each tradition in the church. Saint Silouan the Russian Orthodox Monk, and Saint Columba / Columcille the Irish monk.

I ask both these Saints and Fathers to pray for me on a regular basis.

Now, about the Holy Theotokos: Getting used to the idea of asking her prayers for me was a bit of an adjustment. But because The Church taught the importance of this, I submitted to her teachings. Mary, after all, is my adopted mother, since I am the adopted brother of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My own mother is a great person, but as in all relationships down here, I've experienced dissapointment in that relationship. So I look to Mother Mary to make up for those deficits.

The comforting difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism about Mary is the following: In Orthodoxy, there is a school of thought that says that although Mary was a very devout and holy person from the beginning, she was a sinner in need of a savior like the rest of us. However, when she said "Yes" to God about bearing The Christ, God at that point cleansed her from all sin from that point forward.

Mary's YES to God is our example. Saint Mary is called The Champion Leader of Christians and it is precisely because of her YES that she is called this. She is our supreme example to follow, next to the Lord Jesus Christ. And not believing in the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, she becomes more accessible and more truly human to me.

I realized before my conversion that with Mary's attitude towards God, if He had requested that she be a Virgin throughout her life to safeguard the identity of Jesus as the Incarnate Word, she most definately would have said YES to that as well. So I no longer have theological problems with Mary as The Holy God Bearer and as Ever Virgin.

Getting used to requesting her intercessions and aid was something gained with practice.

Hope this helps,

Columba Silouan.

Dear Columba,

A new name, what a wonderful gift. That is truly the mark of a new beginning.
I know that God has a name for me, I've heard him say so in the past. It has not yet been revealed, however. Perhaps one day.

I am sure that there are many things surrounding Jesus' birth, life, and death that would yet surprise us if we knew them all. So the possibility of Mary being ever-virgin, and living a sinless life do not surprise me at all.

I can relate to despair.

May God illumine and guide me.

Forgive me if you've already told me this, but what are you doing now? Are you in seminary? I am by trade a Forester, but spend my days more at the computer than in the forest ;>)


Good afternoon, Jim.

My current job is at the western sales center of a building products company where I've worked for ten years. I am a Support Staff Assistant.

I have applied for a Copy Writer position at a local ministry here in town. I've been told I'm a strong candidate and to expect a second interview.

I still have an interest in the Priesthood. We'll see about that in time.

Blessings,

C. S.